Wild Acres
There is a lot of allegations and innuendo flying on here about the Wild Acres conference facility. I have spoken to members of the friends of wild acres and I have spoken to Bill Egseiker who is quoted in the article. From my understanding of the situation:
Financial responsibility of Overland taxpayers:
the city would have to bring the buildings to an occupiable standard, mold and asbestos remediation, beyond that the only financial responsibility would be for the city to continue making their mortgage payments on the property. Mention is made in the article about applying for grants to be used in the renovation. I will follow up on this and make sure I have this correct.
The Partnership with the city:
As it says in the article the city would own the buildings and the business would own itself. Nothing more nothing less. No involvement from the city in the conference center.
Ownership of the wild acres seminary buildings:
Would remain with the city and yet the buildings would be used in such a way as to generate revenue and tax.
Ann Purzners involvement:
None, if any of you have attended any of the friends of wild acres meetings you would see that Ann and the ORT are nowhere to be seen (other then in the parking lot taking down license plate numbers) what was Ann supposed to say? Was she supposed to pull off her Rubber mask and revealed herself to be Mark Brown and looked at the sheriff and snarled. "It was a perfect plan I sell the wild acres seminary to myself for well under market value and then resell it to be used as section 8 housing. And it would have worked if not for those pesky kids!" ala scooby doo? She gave the banal trite noncommittal answer that politicians always give.
availability of wedding chapels/halls:
look around Overland what does this city have to offer in halls that one can rent to have a wedding reception? WE have the lions, the VFW, the Moose and the community center. We don't have a dedicated banquet hall. You have to drive to Maryland heights for a banquet center.
And while in Maryland Heights you have to put up with the odor of Dill Pickles and who wants that on your wedding day?
General plans for the use of the property:
While most of the people are focusing on the one stop wedding shop concept what business makes more sense for the property then a conference center? You have a commercial kitchen, a chapel/lecture hall, a gymnasium/ banquet hall, and the seminary building which would make a nice b & b. The site is perfect for a conference center.
I challenge any of the detractors from the idea to come up with their own ideas for use of the Wild Acres site that not only keeps the buildings in the city's hands but also generates a revenue stream for the city and creates jobs for the city.
Financial responsibility of Overland taxpayers:
the city would have to bring the buildings to an occupiable standard, mold and asbestos remediation, beyond that the only financial responsibility would be for the city to continue making their mortgage payments on the property. Mention is made in the article about applying for grants to be used in the renovation. I will follow up on this and make sure I have this correct.
The Partnership with the city:
As it says in the article the city would own the buildings and the business would own itself. Nothing more nothing less. No involvement from the city in the conference center.
Ownership of the wild acres seminary buildings:
Would remain with the city and yet the buildings would be used in such a way as to generate revenue and tax.
Ann Purzners involvement:
None, if any of you have attended any of the friends of wild acres meetings you would see that Ann and the ORT are nowhere to be seen (other then in the parking lot taking down license plate numbers) what was Ann supposed to say? Was she supposed to pull off her Rubber mask and revealed herself to be Mark Brown and looked at the sheriff and snarled. "It was a perfect plan I sell the wild acres seminary to myself for well under market value and then resell it to be used as section 8 housing. And it would have worked if not for those pesky kids!" ala scooby doo? She gave the banal trite noncommittal answer that politicians always give.
availability of wedding chapels/halls:
look around Overland what does this city have to offer in halls that one can rent to have a wedding reception? WE have the lions, the VFW, the Moose and the community center. We don't have a dedicated banquet hall. You have to drive to Maryland heights for a banquet center.
And while in Maryland Heights you have to put up with the odor of Dill Pickles and who wants that on your wedding day?
General plans for the use of the property:
While most of the people are focusing on the one stop wedding shop concept what business makes more sense for the property then a conference center? You have a commercial kitchen, a chapel/lecture hall, a gymnasium/ banquet hall, and the seminary building which would make a nice b & b. The site is perfect for a conference center.
I challenge any of the detractors from the idea to come up with their own ideas for use of the Wild Acres site that not only keeps the buildings in the city's hands but also generates a revenue stream for the city and creates jobs for the city.
posted by John Doe at 1:16 PM
20 Comments:
Did ORT men actually show up and write down license numbers from cars in the parking lot at 2500 Ashby on the day of its open house, or was that just mentioned in jest?
John Doe....... say it ain't so. You, too?! I think you have been hanging around the hobby shop a little too much. They really do need better ventilation. When you feel dizzy step outside..... not to the blog site.
This is the same half-glued plan that they "brainstormed" back in November. (See my post back then). Nothing has changed. Nothing will change.
Market forces drive real estate. Government can assist that market when 1) you have a troubled piece of property (fagmented ownership, outdated infrastructure such as access or roads) or 2) when they are out of their minds and have been spending too much time putting together that bitchin' Revel 69 Camaro model.
Wild Acres sits on a very recently improved and widened four lane County arterial road. It has one owner. It sits just off of the Page Extension. They are getting ready to close Highway 40. I suspect the market may change for this piece in the next 10 years. If Overland had any sense, it would look long term and also start zoning along the Page corridor. Turning around one piece of propety is meaningless to the City's overall health. Comprehensive planning for land use, transportation, etc. is needed now. Instead we are debating whether to have a conference center or a wedding banquet facility.
As Whitefolks points out, I am sure there is a reason why we don't have a conference center or a wedding facility in Overland. We also do not have a car dealership, a sushi restaurant..... need I go on? If there was a real need for such a facility, there would be one. Maybe we should ask the folks at the hobby shop where they host their corporate conferences now.
A couple of other points here. Government should stick to what government does best, basic municipal services. On a legal note, when a government strays away from basic city services, it loses its sovereign immunity. Better talk to Herman about that one. Oh yea. We don't talk to him.
There are some fabulous land planning firms out there. The City should spend the money to conduct the research. If you want to turn this mess around, invest now. If only we had a bank headquartered here.
While I have my doubts about the feasability of the conference center, it is the only thing that has been suggested that keeps the property in the cities hands and is a revenue source for the city. What better idea do you have town and country?
We seem to have three options in regards to the wild acres seminary buildings.
A) we do nothing with them, they just continue to sit there as they are now, the city paying for the mortgage with no return from their investment.
B) we sell the property and let a developer do what they wish. While on the surface this idea seems best, the city has no control over what is done with the property once it is out of their hands. Do we need more car repair and check cashing and fast food? Does Overland need more low rent section 8 apartments?
This option is the option that will meet with the most resistance because even though in a capitalist sense this option makes the most sense, this is the option that runs up against NIMBY opposition and "you're not selling my park" opposition
C) a landlord tenant situtation where the city controls the building and businesses lease space from the city and the city controls the business that go into the buildings and what the buildings are used for. This pacifies the NIMBY and the MY PARK opponents but runs into opposition from the people who distrust Overland city governement and their ability to work in a fair and equitable manor.
So Town and Country what's the best plan? What do you do with this collection of buildings?
I think the thing is, is this is still just a proposal, an idea being floated and words being used that are maybe not exact legalese. The people from FoWA are putting an idea forth and people are nit picking it instead fo looking at the big picture. I would like to see people give FoWA credit for coming up with an alternative to razing the buildings and putting up housing that only profits Too Wong enterprises. FoWA is still working on a business plan so let's wait til they publish the finalized business plan before we pick it to death.
edgar, folks get richer every day but Karam isn't known for enriching himself respectably. That Mr. Dooley appointed Karam to such a job as VP tells me that Dooley needs to be voted out.
john doe, yes the FoWA are volunteers whose collective efforts deserve respect. Life rewards action. For so long Overland has suffered from apathy, indecision, inactivity and complacency that the FoWA are a great step in the correct direction.
I'd like to see a summary of the messages from whitefolks 5:17pm, t&c mauler 5:57pm, and john doe 8:52am here, to be made more public. A letter to the Journal would be fine, resident comments would be televised, or plastered on a LINK to the Overlandmo.org as purzner offered, might help.
Awesome posts deserve powerful audiences. What would it take?
Think about this: Where have these people been for the last 8 years? I suspect just like most of Overland residents taking things for granted.
The Wild Acres situation is not only a current problem but more of a lingering boil that was allowed to be ignored and to fester.
And who do we have to thank for this? Why none other than the leaders of who bought this facility and never did anything with it : Bob Dody, Leo Stuckey, Ann Purzner, Jerry Kientzle, Phil Paul, Jerry Hodge, Nancy Allison, etc.
It's pathetic. When these officials had the opportunity to actually do something with it they didn't. OLD BOYS!!!!!!!!!
Wild Acres buildings began to detoriate the minute Overland took ownership. I know Dody is a member of FOWA but how many others of this ensemble are and why should I trust them now when they had an opportunity and did nothing?
I'll give Bill E. a hand for trying to organize something but it should have never come to this.
say it ain't so, you are one of many who asked the curious question, "Where were these people years ago?"
I was unaware of the problems in City Hall until 2002; I moved here in 1997.
Why is the question raised, regarding the late 90's whereabouts of those who now come forth to address common issues?
Should I care where volunteers were when I was younger? What difference does it make? Perhaps the question is posed to blame the people at fault. Will finding a culprit help us craft a solution?
say it aint so, it's up to you whom you trust or not, and why or why you don't.
say it aint so, whether you trust or distrust the FoWA is your choice. The FoWA were in the late 1990s the same place as the rest of us.
Here's the next relevant question, S.A.I.S. - You know where YOU, your family and friends were eight years ago. For what fraction of this plight do you feel you are responsible?
Regardless of our backgrounds, folks need to get together and become part of a great solution.
********************************
Regarding collaboration between City Hall and anybody regarding asbestos abatement, mold remedies and code compliance: quite a task.
Naz don't take this personally but I think you often, completey misinterpet things people write here. You spin your opinion about what it means. I'm not a rah rah cheerleader I don't sugar coat things.
So here is exactly what I am saying.
Overland is where it is today because of the people who have run our city for upteen years and until we have a normal council and Mayor it is going to be very difficult to pull things off end of story.
Nax my disgust is not directed at FOWA or their plans and I said I'll be patient. It's directed at the people who lead and lead this community into the ground which is Dody/Purzner/Munsch loyalist out for themselves.
My prediction for Overland 2007: Mayor pro tem Jerry May will pardon ex-mayor Ann “I’m no leader” Purzner.
Doe-boy,
First of all, I don't have to come up with an idea and it is my right, as any citizen, to nit-pick or criticize as I see fit.
Here are the answers to your options:
A) We very well could choose this option and wait for the opportunity to develop that will maximize the potential of the property while preserving its historic value (whatever that is). Last time I checked, even the group that used to train molesters there didn't think enough of it to keep it.
B) You could not be more wrong with your comment about the City losing control. Ever hear of zoning? Development Agreements? Historic Tax Credits? Historic Preservation Districts? Restrictive Covenants? Probably not. The City can maintain as much control as it desires. Check to see what other cities have done with significant pieces of property before you make your wild (acres) assed conclusions.
C)Can you name one of these arrangements that has worked? I am guessing the answer is no. Any idea about the tax consequences of a City operating in a for-profit, non-municipal mode? I am guessing the answer is no that one too.
Why let the idea get half-baked, let's pull it out when its an eighth baked..... let's build a hospital. The City doesn't have one. How can that be? A city with this many people and no hospital? Or, how about a SeaWorld? Or, a mega-hobby shop.
Now, since you called me out and you seem to have such a grasp on the development business, sit down and let me make a monkey of you.
The hotel/conference center business is one of the most competitve and capital intensive businesses today. Do you have ANY idea who the competitors are at the high end level (or, in hobby shop lingo, the "boutique" level). Here is one example:
http://www.olin.wustl.edu/execed/knightctr.cfm
So you see, this is a tough business. It is high tech and very capital intensive. The White Center on Ladue Road closed just last week. Probably not the business to be taken on my a group who cannot even a call a meeting to order.
Of course, you don't have to compete at that level. I believe the guys down at the hobby shop referred to the Danielle. Ever been to the Danielle. I have. In fact, my company hosted a lunch there. It is struggling. Its probably their tough location though. Pretty tough to make it in Clayton these days. Too bad they didn't have the foresight to open it on Ashby next to Lambert's communication dome.
Bottom line, I am sure and the hobby shop boys are well intentioned. To answer your question about what I want to do with the "collection of buildings" (your words not mine). I have not a clue. Even though I have forgotten more about real estate development than you and the model makers will ever know, I have not forgotten one thing, leave real estate development and land use planning to those who know what they are doing. Those folks are available and should be hired immediately to look at things comprehensively, not just at the beloved Wild Acres. So, develop a RFP and invite the consultants in to bid on doing the work, then based on that work, implement a long term plan. After implementation, seek developers who are interested in developing consistent with that plan.
Of course, I am a crazy dreamer with these ideas. Hope to see you at the next wedding reception, trivia night, New Year's Eve Party, etc. up at Holy Father.
By the way, I thought you were running off to Kimmswick or some other hiding place to avoid the problems of Overland. Why are you still here?
Hey easy there Mauler. J.D. is the OVCC O.G. and if he wants to pop-off about something on this site, that's his prerogative. It is like going to a buddy's BBQ who may get a little lubed around the grill and start calling people out. You give the man some room, its his party for goodness sake.
Watch yourself, I may run you from this site faster than the bulldozer that took your shit down in the first place. You will last shorter than the steel belts on a set of Firestone Double Eagles.
I am not sure I would go as far as Mauler but I would like to again point out that cities are not businesses. Return on investment is not why a city acquires real estate. The only time ROI is an issue for a city would be the bank accounts and pension plans but those are managed by outside parties. Cities are designed to provide community services and standards.
The City of Overland bought the former seminary property because it had been purchased by Joyce Meyer (pre-botox). Religious institutions are subject to various health and safety regulations but are not subject to zoning restrictions. For that reason, had Joyce Meyer (pre-facelift) went forward with the plan for the half-way house for pregnant teens, to the extent that such use could be characterized as religious in nature, the City could not stop it. They bought the property to avoid that happening and to avoid a lawsuit that could have been brought by Joyce (pre-tummy tuck). They did not buy it for a return on investment.
That being the case, instead of rushing to find an investment, why not simply continue to pay the mortgage, hire a reputable land planning firm to look at the property together with the City as whole, and wait for the opportunity to emerge. On that point I agree with the Mauler.
Keep in mind, this notion that we must sell the property came from Con. Remember her? The nutjob running the City.
Thanks Gravy for a reminder of our founder and whom we owe it all too.
You guys from West County sheez. You don't even sell 40 ouncers out there do you? Civility lad! That is, unless that agression of yours, is fine tuned and channeled to the ORT now that would be just dandy.
OK. OK. Let me set the record straight with each one of you.
Whitefolks: Your hypothetical question is balls on. How much of your own skin are you willing to put in? Even if the hypothetical questionee has only limited resources, how much of that limited resource are you willing to stake? With no research from anyone that has any idea what they are doing, if you are willing to stake any more than a diminimus amount, you are an idiot.
John Doe: You are the one that started this talk about the conference center "proposal", then criticize us for commenting on it. You say we should wait to see their more detailed plan. OK, so should you. I will too but if you are going to talk about it in forum that is designed to exchange ideas, then don't expect me to sit back and say nothing.
Gravy: If you think I should give Doe some room around the grill, I will. Still, a month ago you repost my analysis of the hobby shop plan and now when I deliver the same position, I am told you are going to run me from the site. I am not going to push you any further because I know you will run me, just like a set of steel belts.
Truth: No one pissed in my wheaties. I don't eat wheaties for breakfast. I eat biscut DOUGH and GRAVY. The truth seems to rile these folks up.
Cantrell: Take the gloves off. You might think being dead allows you to be soft but I have read your other posts and know that you probably agree. So my stuff has an edge..... deal with it.
Say it ain't so: You want to know where people have been? Where have you been? I guess the west county reference was in reference to my name. The irony of that is not even worth explaining.
All: If you want me to apologize, fine. I will point out that none of you said I was wrong.
A little XXX from the ORT.
ORT PR:
Seven Seconds that must be a record
Had a curious dream last night. Other side of Ashby had a farmer's market of sorts, not far from 2500 Ashby. As Eckerts in Belleville, it had a place where folks pick their own fresh produce. I picked fresh strawberries from tables which elevated the container gardens - no weeds to mess with.
Why can't we start a tiny, outdoor veggie stand, on the southern edge of Midland, where the chain-link fence keeps mother nature in?
I can see stalls for gardeners, on Saturdays March through October. There are about ten parking spaces there.
Somebody who sells fresh-laid eggs can show off their lovely Foghorns and colorful Leghorns, whose sight and noise could attract passersby. Overland has plenty crafters and gardeners, and people with one-of-a-kind things to sell.
Will all the traffic rolling by on Ashby, I'd imagine there'd be a chance that an unfamiliar car or two would stop in, and learn something new about Overland.
What could it hurt? Who's to say it can't be done? We deserve something fun like that, a place where one might stop by, to pick out the weeks' worth of apples, oranges, berries & bananas, and make or meet a friend or two.
Merchants could sell what local gardeners grow, beyond the needs of their households. Flowers, 'n' Peppers, 'n' Pears, Oh My!
Thanks ellen g.w., for the link which lead to the following article in last years's RFT.
It's a great piece addressing the hurdles involved in:
Produce Row
The beef: too many farmer’s markets and not enough farmers
By Randall Roberts
Article Published May 31, 2006
Details
Who / What:
farmer's market in Tower Grove Park
Jennifer Silverberg
Patrick Horine: "We knew that the neighborhood was ready for a market." Jennifer Silverberg
When Patrick Horine moved back to St. Louis from San Francisco a few years ago, he and his wife noticed something was missing in their Tower Grove South neighborhood: fresh produce.
They shopped for produce at the Soulard Market, he says, but it was difficult to determine which of the bounty was local and which was shipped in from parts unknown. "We knew that the neighborhood was ready for a market, and we knew that the residents were there to support it," says Horine.
Over the past winter, they began planning to open their own farmer's market in Tower Grove Park. Although the idea sparked enthusiasm among their neighbors, they soon discovered it didn't sit well with many of the farmers they invited to participate.
"The response was mixed," says Horine. "Some were immediately interested, but about half said that they didn't think we'd be able to pull it off."
One of those farmers was Paul Krautmann of Bellew's Creek Farm. When Horine called Krautmann, who grows sweet potatoes, winter squash, garlic and chipotle peppers on 10 of his 65 acres, the farmer didn't mince words. "I laid it out, brass knuckles," recalls Krautmann. "I said, 'Good luck, honest to peas, and I hope it succeeds, but I think you're going to have a hard time filling booths and finding competent farmers.'"
Sam Hilmer of Claverach Farms told Horine he was committed to the GreenMarket, which was birthed last year four miles away in the Central West End. Hilmer, known for his microgreens, suggested Horine aim for a weekday market. Aside from the Maplewood Farmer's Market, which sets up shop in the parking lot of Schlafly Bottleworks each Wednesday, the rest of the week was wide open.
"He didn't really heed my advice," says Hilmer. "He was set on the idea of a Saturday market before he talked to any of the farmers, and before he knew whether it was realistic."
Over the past decade, farmer's markets have been cropping up all over. According to the Missouri Department of Agriculture, there were 52 markets in the state in 1997. By last year that number had more than doubled. Between 2004 and 2005 alone, the state saw fifteen new markets added.
The growth, in St. Louis and nationwide, has been fueled by an increasing desire for locally grown produce.
"Typically, the foods we find in the store have traveled over 1,500 miles," explains Allan Benjamin, business development specialist for the Department of Agriculture. "Consumers want local foods. They want to know who's growing their foods. They want to go out and talk with that farmer and get to know them, and farmer's markets are the ideal place to do that."
Says Julie Ridlon, market master of the Clayton Farmer's Market: "Every city wants their own little market. I was approached by four different cities this past year to open up a market."
The problem in St. Louis, explains Julia Feder, market master of GreenMarket, is that there aren't enough farmers to go around. "In a 120-mile radius, I'm guessing that there are no more than 15 produce farmers" interested in working the markets, she says.
"For a community of two and a half million people," explains Brett Palmier of Biver Farms in Edwardsville, "there's nowhere near enough production going on."
"It's a small pool of farmers who are spread thin over a number of markets," adds Sam Hilmer, "and it's diluting them all. As a result, you've got a bunch of half-assed markets. People go there and say, 'Where's the produce?'"
The problem isn't limited to St. Louis, says Vance Corum, who organized some of the first successful markets in Southern California. "The same argument has taken place in Southern California in the LA basin, where I started farmer's markets in 1979. We heard all the time different areas with existing markets complaining about new markets coming online, and sometimes they'd be three, four, five miles apart."
So far, including meat and cheese purveyors, only thirteen farmers are hauling their produce to the Tower Grove Market — although not all of them have committed to selling every week. Horine hopes to have eighteen by July. By comparison, Soulard Market has 93 food vendors, 44 of whom are produce resellers; 22 are growers. The six-year-old Clayton market, in peak season, will have 33 food vendors; and the GreenMarket has increased its vendor population to 17. The Maplewood Farmer's Market has 10 growers.
Compounding the problem in the St. Louis area is a lack of coordination among the farmers themselves. With each new market, growers individually decide whether to commit. Farmers in many other regions are much more organized, says Jack Gerten, manager of the St. Paul Growers Association, a collective of 160 farmers that governs the farmer's markets in St. Paul, Minnesota.
In the St. Paul area, the growers control their markets. If they decide that a neighborhood isn't ready for a market or that it will dilute demand, the farmers simply decline to participate. The association operates a main market in downtown St. Paul and eighteen satellite locations.
"It gives us a strength," explains Gerten. "We have a membership fee, which provides us the money to promote the markets. If you're doing it individually, you just can't afford to do anything except just sit there with a sign on the street and hope that people will give you some free [word-of-mouth] advertising."
With a solid organization and careful foresight, adds Gerten, comes variety and a strong customer base. "Otherwise, with gas the way it is, you ended up running to five or six little markets all over, and selling a little bit at each one. You're spending too much time trying to make a hundred bucks here and a hundred bucks there."
But Brett Palmier says unity won't serve the public if there aren't enough local farmers: "You need nine players to field a baseball team."
Palmier and Keith Biver of Biver Farms load up three vans every Saturday and drive to St. Louis, where they sell their produce at three markets, including the Tower Grove Market. These Saturday forays make or break their week. "Unfortunately for us, a whole week's work is really useless until Saturday morning. What happens on Saturday morning determines whether we've wasted a whole week's work."
It's not the ideal situation, adds Palmier. "But if that's what it takes for us to sell our product at close to a retail value — which is really essential on our scale — then that's what we'll have to do."
He and many other small farmers do not sell at the city-owned Soulard Market, the granddaddy of St. Louis markets, founded in 1838. The majority of stalls, says Keith Biver, are rented by brokers who simply purchase their goods on produce row and sell at a cheaper price than he can afford to.
"We couldn't get the price [at Soulard] we could at the other markets," he explains. "People go there looking for a bargain. Smaller farmers need to get the best price they can get, and it takes a long time to get everything harvested."
Soulard Market's mission, however, is to serve a much broader demographic than the wealthy gourmands in search of boutique vegetables. Explains Sandra Zak, Soulard's market director: "Soulard is a public gathering place to embrace the ethnic and cultural diversity of the region. We're not just about food, and we know that. We take a broader view."
Soulard draws a more varied economic base and appeals to lower-income customers searching for a deal — not the kind of patrons who will make ends meet for the typical small grower, says Hilmer. "In relation to the kind of farm we are, we need the foodies to buy from us. We're not going to sell heads of lettuce from California for 50 cents. Everything comes from the ground on my land. I need to make $1,500 on a Saturday for it to work for me."
Hilmer is hoping that the GreenMarket will become the hub for the local growers, although he wishes the Tower Grove Market luck. "We need one vibrant market, one that will support a level of density — enough people who are going to spend X amount of dollars to make it viable for everyone."
Again, ellen g.w., I'm glad you shared that link since it shows critical research from insiders.
The cost of fuel is what makes the challenge such an uphill battle at best.
Michael Pollan's book, "Omnivore's Dillemma", comes to mind.
Here's a link to an large excerpt from his book. The excerpt, I believe, is the entire first chapter!
http://www.michaelpollan.com/omnivore_excerpt/pdf
I need to review that excerpt before making further comments, lest I fail to do justice to the work.
Otherwise, happy 2007 to all!!
thanks to everyone who stood up for me, but I don't mind T&Cs opinions. I wield the ultimate power in that if he made me angry enough I could just go through and delete all of his commetns. But I didn't. I feel that in spite of his inability to debate the point without including personal jabs he has some very valid points that need to be presented. He has knowlegde that I don't. He appears to have more knowledge then I do when it comes to real estate. My knowledge of real estate is one intersted party buys a parcel from another party, the buyer then either uses the property for his own use or tries to resell it for a profit. I would like to hear more of T&Cs thoughts and guidance on how the city could best utilize this parcel.
T&C
That's really none of your business, and a warning if in the future you include personal atttacks towards another board user you will be banned.
I miss the old Town and Country mall I remember gong there and getting a pizza at Panteras and playing jungle hunt til I ran out of quarters.
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