Discuss Amoungst Yourselves..........
posted by PTT at 5:53 AM
Monday, June 4
26 Comments:
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New Girl in Town said...
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It appears if you vote for Schneider, you are really voting Dody back into office. And if you vote for Keller, you are really voting Purzner/Brown back into office.
What a mess. I sure hope Mary Beth wins; she will help rid Overland of these gangrenous sores that won’t go away. -
PTT said...
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Ironic that COGG wants to get even with MBC for running in last Mayoral election when their candidate came in dead last.
MBC ran for mayor and lost by four votes. She reasonably asks for recount given the margin. The count was correct and she stopped any challenge to the election results allowing Purzner to become mayor.
She stepped away from the Council and waited for next election upon which she was re-elected to her board seat by overwhelming majority. Upon first opportunity to run for mayor again, MBC camped out at community center to get on ballot.
One the other hand, Dody's group could not accept the election results. So the formed COGG and hired a lawyer named Beavis to sue Mayor Purzner for anything they could get in front of a judge. They paid for Beavis to head-up the recall effort which was successful in removing Purzner from office.
Now Beavis is representing Mike Schneider in any and all discussions concerning Overland politics. When did Beavis Shock become Overland power-broker? And more importantly, what sort of practice has Mr. Shock developed when he spends his billable hours speaking for Mike Schneider in Overland meetings.
Beavis's book of business must be pretty thin if the best he can do is try to intimidate MBC on behalf of Schieder. You mean to tell me that Schnieder can't speak for himself as alderman and now he can't speak for himself while running for Mayor. I wonder how he made it out of Vietnam without Dody and Beavis to fight his battles for him.
Purzner voters should think long and hard about the Keller candidacy in relation to Schneider/COGG/Dody/Shock. Which of the three groups sued your Mayor? COGG. Which of the three groups spoiled the last election? COGG. Which of the other parties do you believe will be willing to work with you on your concerns? The candidate who sued your Mayor or the candidate that graciously lost and waited for the next election? -
John Moyle said...
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There are a host of Conlon supporters in COGG, as well as Schneider supporters, people that don't like either and the silent majority who like both and have yet to make a decision. COGG is not a single-minded entity.
It is likely that this Mayoral election will cause significant divisions and membership reductions at COGG. In my opinion, that'll be a good thing. Once the politically motivated operators from whatever side move along the people left standing will likely be those legitimately interested in promoting Good Government and Transparency. Perhaps at that point, the group will be able to finally focus on those goals and might attract more Overland Residents who's interests are more civic than political in nature.
One thing is certain. As long as a few known COGG members are out there spinning half-truths, misinformation and outright lies for or about any candidate, the group's reputation will continue to be rightfully damaged by the hypocrisy. It is entirely possible that this damage will reach irreparable levels (if it has not already done so). -
New Girl in Town said...
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I think there may have been some people that joined COGG or helped out COGG for the right reasons, of removing an incompetent mayor (Purzner). I wonder what the consensus is of all the COGG members? Do they all support Shneider/Dody? I was under the impression that some COGG members supported Mary Beth Conlon; at least it appeared that way. Correct me if I’m wrong.
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New Girl in Town said...
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Ahhhh...Sailor, you answered my question. I didn't see your post before I posted mine.
Thank you. -
John Moyle said...
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My pleasure NGiT
Ultimately, it is up to the leadership of any group to set the tone, correct misbehavior, clear up misconceptions, etc. If the leadership of an organization chooses not to do so, the average member of the public will assume the negative actions of some of their membership are sanctioned by the group.
You cannot clear up every rumor or answer every charge but this particular issue has been spoken about throughout Overland for at least a month. How COGG's leadership chooses to deal with it (or not deal with it) will determine the future of that organization. -
PTT said...
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Beavis is COGG's Attorney.
Beavis is Dody's Attorney.
Beavis is Schneider's Attorney.
Feel free to split hairs, but...... -
John Moyle said...
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OK,
Is every Democrat Pro-Choice?
Is every Republican Pro-Iraq war?
Is every libertarian Pro-Drug-Legalization?
You can call it splitting hairs if you like but the fact remains that COGG is made up of many people who don't all agree on who will be the best Mayor in the future, not to mention what the best approach might be to a host of other issues. -
PTT said...
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How is it possible for your interests to be "more civic than political in nature"?
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John Moyle said...
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Easy. You're more civic than politically minded if you're more interested in seeing something change for the better than which party, candidate, animal mascot, etc gets the credit.
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PTT said...
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My mistake, I was using the traditional meaning of the word politics as opposed to the current usage.
Policy I agree with is civic minded.
Policy I do not agree with is political. -
John Moyle said...
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Well, that might be the way it is used by some but that is not what I meant, nor is it what my explanation said.
People who put politics before civic responsibility will choose to vote against a policy they would otherwise agree with simply because they "wrong side" proposed and thus would get credit for it.
Case in point: the frequent use of the phrase "I cannot support it because it does not go far enough" in the State and Federal legislative branches.
More often than not, the reason the politician could not support the measure in question (even if it is something they campaigned on or have been championing for years) is because they do not want their political rivals to get credit for it. -
PTT said...
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Sailor,
I would continue this discussion if I thought you were actually considering the responses.
Since the day I met you, you have championed the naive and antiquated notion that politics and administration can be separate functions. You always argue that there exists a rational policy solution if everyone would stop playing politics. The only thing stopping utopia is "politics" and "lawyers". It is intuitively appealing to you but not any other serious political scholar since Woodrow Wilson.
Politics is who gets what, when, where, and how (Lasswell). The moment you try to take "politics" out of the equation you have become a nationalist or authoritarian.
I am resting my argument on several hundred years of scholarship, but I am sure these works are not rational civic mind philosophies but have been polluted with politics.
Reality is just like Perot said, if we could just get the smartest people in a room away from politicians and lawyers, we can solve these intractable political problems.
Gravy -
John Moyle said...
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Gravy you regularly mis-characterize what I say here, as is likely evident to anyone reading this comment thread.
You seem to see the world as black and white and can't accept any possibility of gray (like with the concept that COGG is made up of people with multiple mindsets). That might make things intellectually easier for you but the real world simply doesn't work that way.
COGG effectively brought about the first successful Recall in St. Louis County in 25 years (as well as the first successful recall of a 3rd class city Mayor in the history of Missouri) because the people that got involved chose to put aside their various political differences and work together on an important common goal. If COGG's efforts were limited to the political players associated with previous administrations we would still have Mayor Purzner and all the troubles associated with her tenure.
You can't seem accept any opinion that conflicts with your own world view and you appear to take pleasure in belittling and insulting all those who do not walk lock step with you. Since you latest post makes it clear that it is either your way or the highway, I'll choose the latter. -
PTT said...
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Dude that is hilarious!
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PTT said...
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Uh that isn't quite my way Sailor, but if you think so, far be it from me to force you to walk lock-step with the history of political and economic philosophy.
What the hell would Harold Lasswell, Max Weber, John Stuart Mill, David Ricardo, Dennis Judd, Mike MacKuen, James Madison, Karl Marx, William Riker, Robert Dahl, John Salisbury, Ira Edelman, Karl Popper, Socrates or etc etc etc... know about politics anyway.
I could go on but I hope that I have adequately made the point that you are not disagreeing with me but actually the entire history of republican political philosophy.
If you feel belittled, don't talk to me about it, talk to them.
I don't take issue with things I agree with so you may be overstating your lockstep comment. What you seem to believe that I seem to believe actually differs from what I actually believe.
I see everything as black and white. Good God that is funny.
Your "common good" argument died with the Utopian Socialists of the 19th century. But hey, publish your argument and you will relieve students of studying Federalist 10 for the remainder of the republic.
Oh and thanks for acquainting me with the "real world" -
PTT said...
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"The vital question is not 'Who should rule?' but 'How can we minimize misrule?" - quoted in "Philosophy and the Real World : An Introduction to Karl Popper" by Bryan Magee, ISBN: 0875484360 (Chapter 6)
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PTT said...
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"But the difficulty of combining holistic planning with scentific methods is still more fundamental then has so far been indicated. The holistic planner overlooks the fact that it is easy to centralize power but impossible to centralize all that knowledge which is distributed over many individual minds, and whose centralization would be necessary for the wise weilding of centralized power. But this fact has far-reaching consequences. Unable to ascertain what is in the minds of so many individuals, he must try to simplify his problems by eliminating individual differences: he must try to control and stereotype interests and beliefs by education and propaganda. But his attempt to exercise power over minds must destroy the last possibility of finding out what people really think, for it is clearly imcompatible with the free expression of thought, expecially of critical thought. Ultimately, it must destroy knowledge; and the greater the gain in power, the greater will be the loss of knowledge." (Popper, "The Poverty of Hostoricism")
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PTT said...
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We may now turn back to the Utopianist's claim that his method is the true experimental method applied to sociology. This claim, I think, is dispelled by our criticism. This can be further illustrated by the analogy between physical and holistic engineering. It may be admitted that physical machines can be successfully planned by way of blueprints, and with them, even a whole plant for their production, etc. But all this is possibile only because many piecemeal experiments have been carried out before-hand. Every machine is the result of a great many small improvements. The same holds for the planning of the production plant. The apparant holistic plan can succeed only because we have made all kinds of small mistakes already; otherwise there is every reason to expect that it would lead to big mistakes.
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Unknown said...
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Gravy-
Are you done ranting, or just busy looking up more quotes? -
PTT said...
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Maybe, thanks for your concern though.
I am certainly not going to stop looking-up quotes. I bought all of these books here in the office, I might as well use them from time to time.
What is a good obsession worth if you can't be compulsive about it?
Today I decided to be more civic minded and due the right thing.
The COGG is made-up of a diverse group of citizens who use the organization simply to promote "good government". -
Unknown said...
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My concern is selfish.
The lads and I have turned your diatribes into a drinking game.
Over the course of the rant, it's a drink per post and a shot per quote.
The original version was a drink per mordant statement and a shot per "Carol" reference, but my liver couldn't take it. -
PTT said...
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Whatever gets you through the night Lindy. Glad to see you have consumed enough liquid courage to post a comment. Drink a bit more and maybe you can say what you actually mean.
I here ya. I'm done. -
girlygirl said...
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1st of all this is a democracy and every member of COGG has the right to support who ever the hell they want to. Those that preach democracy call COGG a hate group, pratice what you preach!!!!. COGG was organized to "keep the wheels of Government Turning Smoothly". Read the button sometime! It is my understanding COGG is NOT repeat NOT supporting either canidate. That is for each and every citizen to do on there own. As far as the tax waiver. I have lived in Overland my ENTIRE life and I recieved a tax waiver once. You all should check into the laws before you start throwing mud. It is my understanding Mr & Mrs Schneider moved BACK to St Louis in March of 2005. HMMM 2 years ago, isn't that the time limit to run for mayor???? I got the impression ANN was talking to the press when Mary Beth announced the law suit, which she called the news people to meet her. Ann said "I'll do what ever the courts say" so did Mary Beth. Ann's people called COGG a hate group now so does Mary Beth's people. HMMM who's backing Mary Beth Mark Brown???? I also understand the COGG attorney wanted to meet with both of them to see if they couldn't reach a compromise where only one would run but Mary Beth wouldn't show. Didn't have the deceny to call and tell anyone just didn't show. Let them all go and sit & wait. How rude!! I have yet to see Beavis at any Overland meetings speaking for anyone. Maybe you are attending a different council meeting. If Mary Beth would have told Mr. Kientzel she was running he would have backed out and Mary Beth would have won. But she waited until the last day and the last few minutes to sign up. She is the reason Overland was in the mess last year. Mary Beths people camping out at the community center also did not stay there the entire time I know this because I seen it with my own eyes the guy leave that was having car problems because he broke his light switch and could not turn off his lights there for about to run out of gas he left!!!!! Mary Beth told people she had a signed affidavit then when asked by a lawyer to see it she couldn't produce it, HMM A LIAR!!!! Lets not get ANN BACK IN!!!!
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girlygirl said...
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Gravy just for yourinformation, COGG was not formed to get Mary Beth in it was formed to get Ann out. Also MBC Mary Beth Conlon is a memeber of COGG!!!!!
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girlygirl said...
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COGG paid Beavis to get rid of BUTT head. Which I thank them for!! GO COGG!!!! He was paid for services on the legal way to do the recall and nothing else. Oh by the way Beavis is not Mr Schneiders lawyer!!!
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Been a real long time since I posted. After the recall I figured I had given my two cents worth on it and that was enough of my time.
Over the last few weeks I was approached by a COGG member with a well scripted hack job regarding the Mayor's race.
I didn't say anything I just listened. It seemed as if it had been memorized and told many times before. To me the attempt to deceive is the same as a lie. He lost my respect.
It was a very convuluted story I was told "he was Frank Munch's candidate". As if that would impress me.
Why in the hell does Munsch need a horse in this race? Wasn't he run out of town just like Brown?
I also was told Mary Beth Conlan refused to meet with the COGG's attorney who was also Dody and Stuckey's personal attorney.
To me why would she? I'm glad she didn't. Who cares what the COGGS attorney's think about who they want to be the Mayor of Overland? Are those attorneys residents of Overland? No they are not.
If anybody should be ashamed of themselves about splitting this vote up it is the COGG.
For what its worth here is what I think. The COGG and its members are not what they pretend to be.
Citizens of Good Government is a front. COGG is really a political click, a personal group of the old political people who want to take charge of city hall again.
Citizen's of Good Government are basing this Mayors race on settling a score, on personal grudges, and on a person's gender and not on the real issues and who is the most qualified person to be our next Mayor.
Why did the councilman from ward 4 become the chosen one for them? Because they can "control" him that's why.
That sums it up about this race and it says a lot about what the Citizens for Good Government are actually all about
THEMSELVES