Principle of Parsimony
The simplest workable theories are also the best and most useful.
posted by PTT at 6:48 AM
Friday, May 4
Previous Posts
- The Latest Excuse
- The Canonization of Carol Sparkes
- Now back to our regularly scheduled Ass Counting p...
- CAROL SPARKS IS A DEPLORABLE PERSON
- Past Baggage?
- Lines Forming Now
- Sybil Defense: The Carol Sparks Method
- Open Response to Carol Sparkes
- Congratualtions--Bah, Aplogies--Yes!
- One More Lie for the Road
56 Comments:
I assume some readers have not heard of the "Principle of Parsimony", at least by this name. I hadn't, so I looked it up. :-)
First there is the word Parsimony which basically means to be excessively frugal.
There there is the Principle of Parsimony itself, which has also been called the "Principle of Simplicity", the "Law of Economy" and Occam’s Razor. Now we are getting into things most of us have heard of more regularly.
One regularly heard variation of this philosophy is:
"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."
Another being:
"Keep it simple stupid".
The basic idea is that you make every effort to whittle a problem or question down to its key elements when trying to find the answer or the solution.
Thanks Gravy, you made for an educational morning for me. :-)
"i found an amazing picture of a Buck(Deer) that had an outstanding rack"
Hey BLUEEYES, if I send you an amazing photo I found of a friend that has an outstanding rack, would you make a calendar for me?
Thank of it as a gesture of good-will.
Does anyone see an issue with our Cinco de Mayo celebration that involves no margaritas or tequilla in any form?
Oh well, Bud Light it is.
You could put the Bud light in a huge glass with salt on the edges. :-)
That or they could have Dos Equis. ha!
Comment SPAM time again. :-)
Though I have more information I would like to develop and add, there is a new article at The Overland Examiner about the Council Workshop Meeting held Monday, May 7th, 2007 concerning the 8610 Development Plan. We also have the full meeting on video available at the site.
One bit of disappointing information was learning that Beech Nut has apparently chosen to pull out of this development. According to the developer they made the business decision to relocate the HQ to New York where their primary production facilities are. They are currently negotiating with the Developer to sublet the space as they had already committed to a 5 year lease.
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Bear63114 asked about assistance for the elderly and disabled when it comes to tree removal and the like. There is no assistance program at public works that covers this I am aware of (though it might be worth a call to Public Works to make sure).
However, most of the local churches have some sort of informal help your neighbor efforts, and of course there are the people's neighbors themselves.
I would like to see a "neighbor helping neighbor" program run through City hall as I have mentioned before. However, the City has some house cleaning to do and the like before they can start to look into such programs.
I would suggest that residents contact their Council members and ask them to consider such a program when working on the 2007/2008 budget. No matter what, such a program would need some sort of funding (insurance, administrative costs, etc).
Bear63114 if you cannot get that downed tree removed on your own please feel free to email me and I would be happy to come by and see if it is something I can take care of for you.
I am not elderly but do in fact share in their plight. I too live on a limited income.
Is there any program whereby the City could pay for the maintenance of my property?
I don't think it is fair that not only do I have to own the property, I also have to maintain it.
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Well Gravy Obviously I disagree with that. I don't want the City attempt to subsidize anyone's property.
However, it is simply neighborly to seek to help those who have difficulty helping themselves. I have a few neighbors who cannot do property maintenance for themselves anymore.
When it comes to regular maintenance like grass cutting and the like they pay someone to come do that. But when a storm blows in and either brings down trees, dumps a bunch of snow, or something similar there are several residents here who are more than willing to lend a hand.
When it comes to the neighbor helping neighbor concept the only reason I am looking to see this run through the City is because the world is not as nice as it once was.
These days, those in need should know that the people coming to help them do not have a criminal record or the like. The PD could background check volunteers for that program to help with this (not a perfect solution but far better than nothing). Also, in these days people sue for anything and everything. I imagine there are a host of professional tradesman, especially retired tradesman who would like to help, but fear the possibility of being sued. If the City could add this program to their insurance or seek a different insurance contact for it that would protect the volunteers as well.
Now there are grant programs already to help people bring their property up to code, and the city has such a program at public works. Those funds could potentially go much farther if volunteers did the labor.
Ultimately, a program like this has the potential to benefit everyone. Those houses that are in disrepair because someone is not capable of repairing it themselves tend to effect the surround property values. An effort to help people help themselves could improve values (not to mention a community "spirit") throughout Overland.
Obviously it is not as easy as all that and would take some time and hard work to develop, but a program like this could be successful and a benefit the entire City.
Fair Enough Sailor, fair enough.
Maybe we could link the Overland Volunteer Corp with the city calender issue, thus killing two birds with one stone.
Any takers?
Sailor, I think your on the right track. Neighbors pitching in to help their neighbors and restoring a sence of community can only be for the good. Instead of adding the program to the cities insurance, perhaps have the city attorny draft an acceptance of waiver for those who need help to sign provided no criminal activity is perpetrated. Not sure how that would work, but it's a damn fine idea. I live in wright city, My wife and I had several trees fall in the last ice storm. I have a tractor with a front loader and chain saws, what I didn't have was the time to deal with them. ( wife pregant,trying to get a nursery ready and work 10-12 hours a day) 2 weeks ago, I come home from work and my next door neighbor is in my yard cutting up trees and stacking fire wood. I tried to pay the man for his kindness and his response was " I know you kids ( bless his heart) are busy all the time, thats what neighbors are for." Kinda restores your faith in the species dont it!
Gravy That is possible. However, I did like SuzyJax's idea about an advertising based calendar. I'd just like to see it done a little classier. Perhaps that is something the Overland Business Association would consider.
Mike The problems with waivers is that they don't protect you from the costs of defending against a lawsuit. For example: People sign waivers stating they won't sue their children's school if anything happens on a field trip. Yet, as soon as a child is hurt, a lawsuit often follows. In Court when the waiver comes up the family that files suit argues that of course they meant they would not sue, but they never expected that (fill in the blank) could happen if the supervising teachers were acting responsibly. Their lawyer argues that this is a case of Gross negligence or something simiar. More often than not the School ultimately win these suits but the cost of defending against them is very expensive.
The same can hold true for someone offering to do work on someones home, even if it's free.
Having actual insurance to cover for this could be the carrot that convinces various professionals (who have seen and/or heard of some of the most ridiculous lawsuits) to get involved. Heck, with that protection we might be able to get a few active contractors to donate time on occasion due to the potential good publicity they could get from it.
Of course the viability of such a program comes down to what the Insurance for it might cost (or if it is even possible to get). I can't say it would be worth it, but I do believe it is worth getting bids on (assuming the city has any available funds in the budget).
Blue Eyes I can't say if that service existed at some point in the past. However, having lived here since the end of 1998 I have never heard of it.
However, for as long as I have lived here if you cut up the limbs into manageable lengths and tie them up the Trash company will pick them up every Friday. Not sure what the size / weight limit is with them. All I know is that they have always picked up everything I put out that was cut to 3 foot or so lengths and tied in bundles.
sailor, Your right on the waivers, a public liability policy might just be the answer, When i owned a security company, i had to carry a 1 million dollar public liability policy that covered my installers, If memory serves I believe the cost was around $750.00 per quarter.I dont know if the same type of policy would be applicable, but in the spirit of parsimony, it may be worth looking into.
Lucky while I was floating around I couldn't help but notice Overland Sailors Tax Abatement Piece. Very nice job and a what a great service the Sailor consistently provides.
Lucky if you get a chance to view it, maybe you could share your thoughts about the meeting.
I must admit I have been out of the scene for a bit so this comment may not remain meaningful. In fact, I am logging in from an airport now.
Do I understand that Beechnut is out? If so, the City should withdraw its support immediately until a "primary" tenant is idenitfied. What if their primary tenant is a tax exempt entity?
A follow-up question would be how long have they been aware that Beechnut was out. I suspect they have known for a bit and MAY have been misleading the City.
This is a great opportunity so the City should proceed with caution.
On another note, the City beginning a handyman service may sound good and harken back to the days of old but it is really a ridiculous idea in practice. First, a City only enjoys immunities when acting in its municipal capacity. Drywalling Carol Sparkes bathroom after storm damage would not likely qualify. Don't get me wrong, we should all halp each other out but this is not what government is about. Sorry sailor. If you own a home, you must afford a home.
T&C I agree that this would not be something where the City would not have potential liability issues. That is why I suggested that we get bids on insurance to cover such a project.
It is not a perfect concept, but it's a start. Research may tell us that this would best be handled by created a not-for-profit assuming funding for admin costs, insurance and background checks could be secured.
You say if you own a home you need to afford a home. Great concept, so if someone on a fixed income can no longer afford their home due to the ever rising cost of living where would you suggest they go?
My father (god rest his soul) wanted to stick it out on his job until the next contract negotiation because he knew the retirement benefits would improve. If he retired before that time he wouldn't get the increase. Retirees income rarely increases to the same degree as our cost of living has been increasing lately. As property values go, Overland is still pretty inexpensive. So if someone cannot afford to live in a home they own outright here, where exactly could the go? Next stop I can see is public assistance. So, it seems to me we either find a way to help people know, or we will be paying to help them later.
As people age, they often get to the point where they cannot do it all themselves anymore. As the basic costs of living increase, they have a harder and harder time finding the money to pay someone to make repairs and the like. The result is their homes begin to decline.
If you look at this selfishly alone, it can have a positive effect on the community in that it could bring those houses out of decline, which would help with surrounding property values.
The bottom line for me is that the average retiree has paid their dues and many of us have jobs that are the result of their labors before us. We should at least be willing to explore options.
In the end we might find that a program like this is not viable. If so, I could accept that. But to blow it off before an effort is made to research the possibilities is simply not acceptable to me.
On another note, why everything on this site has to be about CS is beyond me. Frankly, it's getting old.
T&C,
I too have a feeling that the Beechnut thing was old news. I saw the listing for the space a week or two before I saw the Beechnut announcement by the developer. Hmmm....
I never thought about the tax exempt aspect. Very, very good point.
One more thought about the tax-exempt entity (e.g. charity or the like). If the developer still owns the land, but leases would the tax exempt status of the leasee (but not the property owner/leasor), change the dynamic?
I don't know, but good line of thinking T&C.
It absolutely changes the dynamic. You grant a real estate tax exemption in order to drive jobs, sales tax at neighboring businesses etc. If you don't know who the tenant is...... you may get nothing in return.
Sailor, I respect your opinion like no other on the site, save Gravy, but this one is just wrong. Whether you like it or not, it is our system and way of government. Under your plan, the government props up property values by paying for maintenance that the owner cannot afford. Under your same system, what happens when the majority of the city now needs government assistance because no new owners come in? Whether you like it or not, a City's vitality comes from new capital, new ideas, new owners.... sorry to say, people dying.
I realize people live on fixed incomes and costs increase. Still, you cannot have a government living people's lives. The government sets standards and needs to enforce them. If the owner can't step up, they need to ask family to help, a neighbor to help or sell the property.
By the way, I drove down Page on my way to the airport today. Overland can't even make sure the current owners maintain their derelict properties.
Whoops, I forgot a gratuitous reference to Carol Sparkes.........
Sailor, you may not like it but it is what drives folks on this site. She is a shell of a human who, in my opinion, cannot be excused for her attack on SJ. I realize you would like to be the journalist and stay above the fray. That is why you have your own site. As for the rest of us muckers, Carol Sparkes deserves it. She has brough shame on herself, her site and Harry Ritchey. You do not have to engage but don't criticize us who do.
Your right, I have my own site. I am not so much above the "fray" as I am just tired of the schoolyard approach. But hey, I know where the the red X is on my browser, it's not like I am forced to come here. Ah, pots, kettles, and the wondrous digital age we live in. LOL
I am not senior but also am living on a fixed-income. The only difference is that I have not had fifty-years to "fix my income" at a level appropriate to maintain a certain standard of living.
I will also take Sailor's advice to heart. From this point on I will stop pointing-out Carol Spark's lying and we can get back to the day where ORTian rumor and innuendo go virtually unchecked and allowed to pollute Overland's "body politic".
As a result of the progressive era, it became painfully obvious that "rational/root" policy analysis was a utopian dream given the nature of politics. But this idea of a "best" policy solution designed on rational analysis continues to permeate our political culture and individual opinion.
Please discuss "politics administration" dichotomy as it relates to the institutional development of the United States and Soviet Union.
Discuss.
Sailor,
It doesnt sound as if you're advocating having the government pay for upkeep and maintenance on people's property, But subsidizing public liability insurance for a VOLUNTEER workforce who would do the work for free.Am I correct in my thinking? I agree that homeowners should be able to take care of their own property, but what about the 75 year old woman with no relatives close by who has a tree down and lives on social security? would anyone want to see their grandmother or mother working in the yard with a chainsaw and wheelbarrow because they could'nt afford to pay $800.00-$1500.00 for removal, and couldn't get someone to help out of good will for fear of being sued if a limb went through the neighbors garage roof? If the city Government were able to provide an insurance pool for those volunteers to pay into on a "per occurence" basis, for those who provide FREE service, we may be surprised at the benevolence in the community.
I also agree with the CS comment. yeah, I know her (second mom and all)but if running ANYONE down is what "drives folks" on this or any site,....... WOW! I'll also say I've known suzyjax for the better part of 35 years, although I haven't seen her in several years. If memory serves she is MORE than capable of standing up to anyone for herself. But thats just my opinion.
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Gravy sometimes your tactics here really resemble the radio talk show host you so dislike.
Where did I suggest that "rumor and innuendo go virtually unchecked"?
Propaganda should always be challenged and in our modern digital age everyone has the potential to do that job. However, everyone also has the potential of being a propagandist.
Are you suggesting that it is impossible to challenge "rumor and innuendo" without constantly referring to CS personally?
Mike you are correct, I am suggesting that the City look into acting as a support structure for such a volunteer program. Your paying into an insurance pool idea is interesting. I'm not sure if this is possible (insurance regulations and other possible road blocks), but I imagine it is worth looking into.
My only concern is that many of the people I know in town, who regularly step up to help their neighbors are often just making it themselves. So I wonder if most of the volunteers would be willing (or capable) of doing this.
Sailor,
What I would suggest is that the city file a ficticious business name, Overland Volunteer workforce or the like, Issue a call for volunteers from each ward to sign up to assist. a blanket public liability policy paid into by the volunteers and the remaining paid by the city should suffice.( figure $15-$25.00) it would be a small price to pay in the event of an accident occuring. another idea may be free advertising in the localite for business that volunteer their time and or personnel. I don't mean a full page ad, but a head line such as "Overland Sailor Inc. donates time to give back to those in need."
The cost to the paper would be minimal and the exposure and good will created for the business would have a fantastic ROI in exchange for that business subsidizing the policy. Wouldn't you agree?
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Mike, the concern I have is the insurance cost. If we assume 15 volunteers from each ward thats 60 people. That's roughly 1200.00 at 20.00 a head. Homeowners insurance runs in that price range, I imagine E&O insurance and the like for this kind of project would be significantly more expensive.
First thing to determine is the insurance costs (I have some calls out this AM to see if insurance for such a project is possible, and how much it might cost). If a Not-for-Profit is created, there may be some grant options out there as well.
The publicity angle is a good one, and considering how that Reporters are always looking for more stories this concept would likely get into (or even become a regular feature) in our local Journal.
As for the fictitious name I don't know that it would help the city with legal liability. The ultimate solution would be a not-for-profit that was not connected to the city at all, though I'm not sure it would find sufficient funding to be effective.
Thanks for the critique of my tactics Sailor. Point taken.
I'll be over here smoking my pipe while contemplating a few dreams I have been working.
I am curious how you plan to allocate the scarce volunteer labor-force across multiple projects. When it turns-out that you have more projects than volunteers, how do you plan to decide who gets what, when, where and how?
My first thought would be to handle it on a first come, first serve basis. However, I imagine volunteers would prefer to work on projects in their wards / neighborhoods, so another approach would be to handle each individual ward separately when possible.
When a project requires expertise (electrical for example) that are limited to one or two people that type of project might need to be handled in it's on first come, first serve list as well.
However, those who step up to volunteer might have a better idea.
You want to know how Overland can get volunteer handymen Two words ...AMISH SETTLEMENT.
We persuade the Amish to set up a community in Wild Acres Park. After they’re finished raising a barn or two for themselves, their righteous manner would certainly compel them to lend a neighborly hand to the rest of us.
The Amish are renowned for their simple and sustainable lifestyle, and their rejection of electricity and motor vehicles would surely translate as another feather in our “green” cap, (Alberici eat your heart out).
Yes, the “Overland Amish Fellowship” (OAF), would raise property values and improve the overall look of the community, hell even a horse drawn buggy looks better than what half our residents drive.
How do you determine whether someone qualifies to receive service? How indigent is indigent? More importantly, how would you deal with "moral hazard"?
Some may see these questions as nothing more than me being difficult. That may be true as my questions are mostly rhetorical in nature, but they are reasonable issues that you will encounter in any type of program that is founded on distributing public goods to private uses.
Lindy nice point about the Amish being green. :-) I don't have a lot of exposure to that community so I can't tell you if they would be charitable or closed to "outsiders" when it comes to a program such as we are discussing. What I can say is that it would be unlikely that an organized Amish community would come to Overland because it is my understanding they are an agriculturally based society and there is not a lot of available land to farm here. However, I remember there being a "friends" organization in downtown Kansas City when I lived there (I can't recall the name) that I was surprised to discover was an Amish Fellowship.
Gravy how to handle who qualifies for aid of this kind and who does not is not easily answered. The first question would be if there was a correlation between the number of services performed and the cost of insurance. If you assume there would not be (for the sake of discussion) than how that would be handled would ultimately be up to the volunteers who are doing the work.
For example, some folks might want to provide lawn care to vets as a thank you for their service, regardless of their economic bracket.
As for the moral hazard that argument could be applied to anything. Am I causing fewer people to attend Council meetings with my coverage of them on the web site? Is the city making people complacent about their own responsibility to protect themselves because of the police force? Etc.
As is the case with any charitable service or government program there are those who will take advantage of the situation, even going as far as committing outright fraud to do so. Do we abandon charitable efforts and all the good they can do because some would abuse them?
I don't think your questions are you being difficult (that's just your nature J/K ), they are certainly something that would come up. Ultimately, whenever we make an organized effort to help others, some out there will try to take advantage. My question is, does that invalidate all the good that effort accomplishes otherwise?
Here is my suggestion its real simple elect a Mayor with a degree in Policy who understands efficiency and such and get the ball rolling in Overland once and for all.
I watched OS video on the abatement and I was at the last council meeting. If Conlon doesn't stand out as the person who should be our next Mayor than those who disagree have blinders on and just want to continue down the proven path of failure. The more I understand about the supporters of potential other candidates the more I know that this is about one thing and it is certainly not about what is in the best interest of Overland.
It's about retaining control and power and vendetta's and its piss poor.
Just doing some catch up after my vacation, I have not fallen off the face of the earth. Looks like some very intense discussion going on.
I’m extremely busy at work, so I don’t have too much time to post. I’ll be bach!
Edgar, I agree with you.
Ok, the volunteers decide who gets the benefits. Then why would you need the government involved at all?
The example of watching your video is not apt. What is the cost to the City in terms of dollars resulting from lower attendance as residence watch at home video?
Without question people are more complacent about their security given the existence of a police force. But this cost is paid by having lower crime rate.
The issue I see is that demand for said services will far outstrip supply. Thus, without a price mechanism to equilibrate quantity demanded and quantity supplied you will have a shortage, leading to scarcity, jealousy, conflict and court.
Gravy I did not say the volunteers decide who gets the services, I said the volunteers would decide how this was approached. It's a subtle difference, but it is a difference. Volunteers who create such an organization would ultimately decide what the policy would be. They would have to have one, otherwise your prediction of problems would certainly come true.
Also,I not entirely convinced that doing this project through the City verses doing it through a private not-for-profit is the way to go. I think it would be easier to get an organization like this running if the City was involved, but that may not mean it would be better.
However, the city already has a program at public works where they receive grant funds to help people bring their properties up to code. There is obviously some sort of mechanism in place there to determine who qualifies for this assistance and from there it is likely handled on a first come first served basis. If the city was to be involved, I imagine the policy in place for that program could be applied.
I get your point about the example of the video not being apt, but I disagree. I think it was a perfectly reasonable example when discussing the concept of moral hazard (or put another way, the law of unintended consequences) in general. And that was my intent, to point out that no matter what you look at, you have a moral hazard involved. The question becomes, does the benefit outweigh the cost. That is an analysis that takes time and careful consideration. as they say, Rome wasn't built in a day.
Gravy We have a philosophical difference here that is creating an impasse and I don't believe this is the first time. Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to choose to look at things with the worst of people in mind, I don't. You seem to prefer to let problems continue because the solution is difficult to develop, I don't. I'm not sure we will ever do more than agree to disagree on these sorts of things.
Years ago, people regularly build new pews for their church, fix neighbors porches, took elderly residents to doctor appointments, and shoveled snow for the widow next door. This was what neighbors did in places with a sense of community. Somewhere along the line we allowed lawyers to dominate our society. People are sued for anything and everything and even if they successfully defend themselves they loose thousands in legal fees. The number one stumbling block preventing us from having a community today that cares for it own like it did in years past is fear of litigation in my opinion. If a group, be it under the umbrella of the City or independent, could be formed where insurance (or other effective mechanisms if they exist) could put aside that fear people will come forward to help.
Chances are, if a run a new phone line for an elderly neighbor and accidentally cause fixable minor damage to their home, they wouldn't even consider suing. However, it is the fear that they could, which comes from all the lawsuits we have read about that prevents most people from taking the chance.
Something like this starts small, but can grow and become not only a benefit to the people served, but the people doing the serving as well (example).
While this Tree issue was brewing on Overland Chat and OVCC I was in the processing of getting a 100 foot tree removed from between my house and a neighbor. The tree split our property line, but we both agreed it had to go.
It was one of those Black Locust, the kind that spread little thorny Locust trees all around your yard.
Over the years we had received estimates ranging from the 1800 to 2500 due to the location.
I saw a Company doing tree trimming and removal on an adjoining street. I asked them to give me a bid.
To my surprise they bid the job at less than half of what the other companies wanted.
I found they were fully insured, checked their reference in Woodson Terrace and St John, All spoke highly of them. I hired them
The next day the crew showed up and in about 21/2 hours the 100 foor tree was on the ground with no damage. The clean up excellent no sign they were even there.
Next door neighbor ended up using them to trim 2 of their trees. they found the price to be the lowest they could find.
It's not neighbors helping neighbors, It is an attempt to keep neigbors from getting raped by business.
They had additional work in this area. If you are interested call Tree Masters at 573-795-2016, the Watkins family runs the company. I didn't even have to dial a 1 before the number.
Do not consider this as SPAM I is a recommendation for a Company I found to be very good and run by a good family.
The do not do calenders.
I don't see an impasse. If there is a demand for an "Overland Peace Corps" and you want to supply this demand, more power to you, all ahead full and you have my support.
In fact, I will volunteer for the first labor crew when the program gets up and running.
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If the volunteers have defined the rules for allocating the scarce resource, the have also determined who gets what, when, where and how.
They are the same decision. If you have two basketball teams, one with average height of six-five and the other with average height of five-five. I don't get to pick the winner but I am allowed to decide whether the hoop is two feet off the ground or ten feet off the ground. By choosing the rule, I am determining the outcome.
Why is the Rules Committee the most powerful committee in the House of Reps and chaired by the House Speaker? The Rules Committee doesn't determine the substance of policy but only the rules that define how the policy will be brought to the floor for a vote, or not.
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I have never known someone to use the term moral hazard in regard to unintended consequences. There may be a Wikipedia entry using the term in this way but that is not how I am using the term.
Moral hazard refers to the idea that certain types of insurance systems might cause individuals to act in a more dangerous way than normal, causing a difference between the private marginal cost and the marginal social cost of the same action.
If I was to insure a drunk against the cost of drunk driving would they drunk be more likely or less likely to drive drunk? More likely as he no longer must incur the marginal cost of the behavior therefore he will do it more often.
______________
The grant program you are referring to is administered by St. Louis County. The program has specific criteria for participation including an income survey of the target area if street improvements are involved.
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Yes, you are wrong at least in regard to how I may approach social problems. I can't speak to how you approach problems as I am not you and would be foolish to say I know how you think. I only know what you write.
I do know that those who choose to ignore risk are often buried by it. I believe Black Swans exist although I have never seen one; therefore I will always plan for the occasion when a black swan appears at my window.
I do say that I am skeptical of most Micky Rooney approaches to social problems. We cannot save the school paper by rolling-up our sleeves and putting-on a variety show.
The world is far more complex than the idealized view of the past you offer in your post. People also used to transfer the costs of property maintenance onto others known at the time as slaves; just people helping people.
I do not choose to look for the worst in people in order to enable difficult problems to persist.
You say, "Chances are.." which I take to say that chances are greater than 50% that everything will work-out. They may be 90% or 99%. But if not 100%, you would be wise to plan for the less than 100% case because it is possible.
In 1989, I was in Intermediate Macro class listening to a lecture on monetary policy and the effects of monetary shocks. Being the smart-ass that I am, I raised my hand and posed the question, "what would be the effect of someone blowing-up the NYSE/AMEX/New York Fed in one fell swoop". We all had a big laugh about such a scenario.
Approximately twelve years later while starting work day I learned that someone had blown-up the World Trade Center causing the closure of the NYSE/AMEX/New York Fed.
Did I predict the 9/11 attack, of course not. But, Black Swans exist and what seems completely impossible at one point in time is an obvious fact of life at a later point in time.
Your discussion of such a program is heavy on defining benefits but light of assigning costs. Therefore, I chose to contribute by concentrating on cost.
When I referred to the Moral Hazard as similar to the Law of unintended consequences it is because it is. Both concepts are similar, and I would hazard to say that when you do not consider the moral hazard you open yourself wide to the risk of unintended consequences.
Most of my opinions come from my own experiences, discussions with others, and how I have seen the world work around me. This reminds me of a favorite quote:
"I prefer the company of peasants because they have not been educated sufficiently to reason incorrectly."
-- Michel de Montaigne
:-)
I agree with you that there are many risks to be considered. As I have stated since this concept first came up, a program like this cannot exist without the funds to provide proper insurance coverage and background checks to say the least. You write as if risk is not being considered, yet from the start I and others have suggested that this cannot work with out insurance and policies to mitigate the risk.
I cannot tell you specifically at this point the details because that has not been worked out and is not likely to be worked out until some people step up and say I want to help where do we start. However, that does not invalidate the idea or the discussion of how to make it a reality.
Suggesting that the volunteers will choose what the policy(s) will be is not engineering the outcome as you suggest, but how the world works. Every Not-For-Profit that is properly administered has bylaws. Once drafted those bylaws are voted on by the membership. Later those bylaws are changed by a vote of the membership when need be. People will have to research different approaches and present what they find to the members. Ultimately the members will decide by vote which policy works best for them.
If you arbitrarily decide what that policy will be, without engaging the membership, you will likely find your organization has a membership of one.
I am curious though, did you check out the article about that volunteer handyman organization I linked earlier?
As we speak, there are people all over Overland that do thing for neighbors who can't help themselves. Many of those people step up to help people outside of their blocks when they learn about a need. An organization like this simply allows those willing to do the work to find those who need it done. Heck, it could be developed as little more than a referral service.
What can be developed will come down to what people step up. If it remains something where I am the lone voice in the wilderness it's not going to happen. I do what I feel is right in my life for my neighbors whenever I can. I would just like to see something developed that would allow like minded people to do the same, and maybe more of it.
Look, how many times do I have to write it. I am not trying to stop your community efforts regardless of how many times you accuse me of doing so. I don't know where you get the idea that I am saying neighbors should not help their neighbors. Or if your short on cash you should be sent to debtor's prison.
Good to see you base your opinions from your experience. I will try it sometime but will continue to use information I get from the Green Alien sitting on my shoulder that whisper in my ear. You know then College Boys may have book learnin but they don't have no street learnin.
:-)
"Later those bylaws are changed by a vote of the membership when need be. People will have to research different approaches and present what they find to the members. Ultimately the members will decide by vote which policy works best for them."
If the bylaws cause an outcome that the members do not prefer, they change the by-laws in order to induce a preferred solution. Voting on the by-laws is also a vote on the outcome.
If the volunteers determine how the service is administered they are in fact also choosing who gets the service and who does not. I don't know where you got the idea that I said the rules should be arbitrarily determined.
Yes, I read the article and that program is great. If you can replicate it then that is also great.
"What can be developed will come down to what people step up. If it remains something where I am the lone voice in the wilderness it's not going to happen. I do what I feel is right in my life for my neighbors whenever I can. I would just like to see something developed that would allow like minded people to do the same, and maybe more of it."
Great-Go for it-it sounds wonderful. But if you are going to use public resources for private uses you had better make the program equally available to ALL that qualify. To determine qualification you need to have criteria that define qualification. To define qualification is to define who, gets what, when, where and how.
How the world works is that institutional rules are proxies for the underlying preferences of the individuals within the institution in regard to who gets the benefit and who pays the costs.
If institutional rules are not a function of the individual preferences, what would they be a function of? Where would they come from?
Gravy maybe I'm missing it somewhere but I don't believe I ever accused you of attempting to stop community efforts. I definitely do not see that in my last post. In an earlier post I suggested that you seem to prefer to let problems like this go rather than deal with creating a solution. I may have been mistaken there, but that is the impression I had at the time. If I was misjudging you I apologize.
This is not a black and white discussion, there is a host of gray here. You and I seem to approach the same issues from opposite angles. In a way, that's great! People get more out of reading the discussion when coming to their own conclusions.
BTW, when I was explaining where I was coming from, I wasn't trying to insult you. The quote was a bit of a dig I admit, but I have so few opportunities to use it and I love it so. LOL
When you wrote the basketball game example earlier it read like allowing the participants to determine the rules would be equivalent to creating a lopsided playing field. That's what I took exception with. Perhaps I took it wrong.
As for the program I mentioned, I recently contacted the gentleman who started it, in the hopes of getting some insights on how best to go about it and learning from any mistakes they might have made when they got started. I hope he is able to get back to me.
I agree that if public resources are used (and even if they are not) a group such as this will have to establish some sort of criteria by which people qualify for assistance and follow it. What that criteria might be remains to be seen and it might not be one we would expect. If the volunteers agree that the best approach is to simply handle requests on a first come first served basis (with perhaps some sort of provision for emergency situations) regardless of income that could be done too.
I agree that institutional rules are based on the preferences of the individuals running the show, or at least the individuals that ran it at the start.
Though we could argue that the rules established by the group could result in racial discrimination or something similar that is not really likely, nor would it be legal. Outside of such issues we are left with saying that the people that form a group will determine the rules that group follows.
If the rules were determined by someone else, and those interested in getting involved took exception to them, how many would choose to get involved? In the end there needs to be a careful balance. One that will require hiring (unless they donate their time) a lawyer to review and ensure is in line with existing law.
So, I do agree that for an organization like the one proposed, the rules, aka bylaws would be created from the individual preferences of those who choose to get involved for the most part. Assuming you have the organizations lawyer review them to ensure they are in line with the law I don't see a problem with this.
We could theorize this concept forever and a day, but since we both seem to be in agreement that has the potential be a beneficial program depending on how it is established the next step seems to be reaching out and asking people to get involved in the development.
"Jane,....you ignorant slut"
arxnfkhcI thought the St Louis county Grant programs through Public Works were really worth while, UNTIL my in law got one to build a wheelchair ramp going into their house.
Along with the Grant Approval came a list of contractors who are approved by the county to do the work. We started calling them the first day after getting approval. A starnge pattern began to emerge, some were too busy, some already had their quota of projects etc. The most honest one of the group finally said The County is so slow pay its not worth doing the projects and he doesn't do them anymore.
None of the companies one the list were major or well known its small companies.
The job finally got done by relatives and a few good neighbors from the immediate neighborhood. One guy had a in for the lumber the rest of us spplied the labor. The City (not Overland) rejected our plan several times siting it had not been done by an engineer. Funny thing was when the current councilman arounf seeking re election the permit got approved.
My advised don't put a lot of hope in the County PW Grants or the ones for improvement for your house. This took place in 2006.
At the last Council Meeting, Chuck Boone brought a program called CORP (County Older Residents Programs) to the attention of the Council. Yesterday I met a few residents who have had some experience with this program. So far, it looks like it might be an avenue to accomplish the goal of a "neighbor helping neighbor" concept without having to create something new. I'll be looking into this tomorrow and I'll write up what I learn.
Hopefully, this is a working program that those of us interested in doing so could volunteer with and provide assistance where its needed.
Home Care and Repair
CORP brokers home care and repair services provided by experienced workers who must be approved after a St. Louis County Police record check. Services include all types of home repair tasks and some personal care needs.
I don't see the word volunteer or lower costs repair. The brokering of home care and repair services is designed so that seniors work with reputable contractors rather than below cost subsidized contractors.
Gravy,
They do broker lower cost repairs for projects that require professionals. However, according to one official they also have a "home sweet home" program which connects volunteers with those in need of smaller projects from light bulb changes to basement cleanups and the like.
There is also the neighbor driving neighbor program where volunteers drive folks to doctors appointments and the like, and a caring call program when volunteers regularly call the home bound to check on them, and just say hello.
There are many more programs at CORPS, all of which have real potential in Overland IMHO. I'll hopefully be meeting people there next week to discuss it.
I believe the confusion comes from the fact that CORP is actually a collection of several programs, the Home Care and Repair program only being one of them.
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